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janie_tangerineaaaand YES I'M DOING REVIEWS AGAIN REGULARLY I'M PROUD OF MYSELF okay down to business now.
premise: no Theon hating k? Just not. Thanks. Also: possible book spoilers though I'm trying to keep it light so thread carefully.
Okay so, general verdict: less all over the place than S2 - as far as it seems - and while there's still stuff I don't like it doesn't seem to be going the clusterfuck way (yet), so I'm going to say I generally liked this except for at least one glaring thing. But more about that in the specific points. So.
1) SOMEONE FINALLY KNOWS THAT BRAN AND RICKON ARE MIA. Just five episodes too late, but alllriiight. The only good thing to come out of this is that when THAT THING HAPPENS Robb won't SPOILER thinking that Theon killed his little brothers, which - well, makes it at least slightly less depressing, but still, what. the. fuck. It should have happened a long time ago.
2) The fact that no one in King's Landing knows makes the Sansa/Tyrells convo look.. well, as a scene in itself it wasn't done badly and also omg Olenna = PERFECT CASTING, but if they don't know that Sansa is actually Robb's heir it makes a lot less sense. Also: WHERE WAS THE BEAR AND THE MAIDEN FAIR, IT WAS THE BEST THING ABOUT THAT SCENE IN THE BOOK. Sorry. But the Sansa/Loras part was done so well.
3) I cackled like crazy during the Joffrey & Margaery scene, okay. Also, poor Cersei. Really. I'm almost feeling bad for how her kid is being like OMG MOM STOP EMBARRASSING ME.
4) The amount of trolling going on with Tyrion and Shae is being out of the world indecent (in every sense of the word). I'm wondering if they're planning on changing a couple of things from the book or if they just want not-book people to punch their screens next season. Mmmh.
5) Meeeh why did they cut so much from the BWB D: Sandor was supposed to show up later, right? D: I mean, I think they could have kept a lot of stuff even if he had showed up like in episode five, but whatever. Beric looks nice, Thoros looks good but is more of a jerk than I remember, please let me have Gendry and Hot Pie forever. Also Arya keeps on being miraculously IC (SOMEONE ELSE WHO'S BEING MORE OR LESS SAVED FROM THE OOC VIRUS), which is good.
6) Bran: yesssssss. The Reeds are totally well cast and I suppose the introduction was as well as it could have been considering the changes. I'm just wondering what's the deal with Osha and Rickon being with them - like, uh, for plot purposes they should be going in the totally opposite direction but then again a) I always thought that Rickon disappearing for three books was bullshit, b) I realize this is television and you can't have a character disappearing for three seasons, so we'll see I guess. There are worse things they could change. Also when he dreamed about Jon and Robb at the beginning ;____;
7) Like Catelyn. Now. Seriously. My current theory is that Talisa has the OOC curse - I.E. whenever someone comes close enough to her to have a conversation they suddenly turned into a bodysnatcher/start acting OOC. Last episode it was Robb and now... Cat is feeling guilty about Jon? Seriously? Okay, uh, just - I think I get it. Or better, I don't *get* it, but I guess they might have done it because since 99% of the reasons people detest Cat and think she's the worst person ever omg go away is that she doesn't like Jon/wasn't a mother to Jon/told Jon THAT quite horrible thing in the books (even if tbh you should take context into account)/thought of Jon - or better, of Jon's possible heirs -as a menace to her own kids first when we all know Jon would kill himself before taking what belongs to his brothers/sisters. So, since everyone-knows-what is happening, they're trying to make Cat more sympathetic to the casual viewer/general audience/people who read the books but are willing to go with their changes by making her regret being mean to Jon or whatever. Which is imo entirely bullshit since if only they had paid more attention/KEPT SOME PLOT POINTS/introduced the Tullys earlier than they are/stopped making Talisa Robb's sensible/pro-peace advisor (that's supposed to be Cat y'all) you wouldn't need to have her regret her behavior to be sympathetic - she has enough reasons on her own for that. Her treatment of Jon is a flaw, but it just makes her human and anyway she has perfectly legitimate medieval-setting reasons for not being entirely cool with the idea of Jon Snow being raised with her kids, though hey I mean it's not like she forbade Ned to do it so just - ugh. WHAT. THE. FUCK. WAS. THAT. Seriously come on. Cat is a good enough character in herself with enough sympathetic traits and who actually can think with her brain and give good advice (SERIOUSLY), you don't need to make her regret not being a mother to Jon to make us like her. Ffs. And this coming from someone who loves Jon, just to state it.
In short: I'll just go blame it on Talisa and on her OOC-turning ways.
8) At least Robb was a bit less of a douche this round (yay, because he's not supposed to), he looked pretty down/depressed (which he should be so double yay), FINALLY KNOWS ABOUT HIS BROTHERS (good too though late) even if when he's all lovey-dovey with Talisa I can't stop rolling my eyes because ugh where's Jeyne W., and HAHAHAHAHAH HIS FACE WHEN THEON WAS BROUGHT UP SERIOUSLY PEOPLE my ship lives forever. Anyway, while I'm still not entirely convinced with this at least Robb's characterization this round wasn't the travesty that last week's was? Small favors.
On that: BRING ON THE TULLYS I've been waiting too long for the Blackfish to happen already. (And to Edmure obviously, but the Blackfish is my favorite forever k.)
9) Since we're on that.
Nope.
I officially can't take an entire season of Theon being tortured OR actually two seasons of... well. you know. I just. Nope. He was in there for maybe five minutes total and it took me fifteen minutes to watch them because I kept pausing while sort of biting on my own fingers and thinking BABY PLEASE NOOOOOOO ;______; like no let's not even get into how he was trying to come up with whatever he thought his torturers wanted to hear because that's bad enough already. But jfc when Ramsay showed up (BECAUSE THAT'S HIM COME ON) and his face was all hopeful and then he was like DON'T LEAVE ME HERE I pretty much died sobbing and decided that next episode will be the death of me because hahahahah THAT'S GOING TO BE A GOOD ESCAPE TENTATIVE WON'T IT. Just leave me here to sob and wish I could cover Theon in cupcakes or something because seriously. Nope. No. Nada. Can't. Do. That.
And I have AN ENTIRE MORE SEASON OF THIS and then if they get to S4 it's probably Reek time and I'M NOT - NOOOOOPEEEEEE.
And btw, there are already assholes on tumblr thinking that he deserves it and they're happy to see it. Thus starts the two months of throwing up in my mouth. /o\
And the thing is that I can't even complain because a) no one's getting character assassinated, b) as far as we know from the book it's totally plausible that some part of what we didn't see went like this. Fuck everything. I can't.
Last thing: someone give Alfie Allen ONE FUCKING INDIVIDUAL AWARD THIS SEASON because he's fucking *good* and just because he happens to play a dude that 70% of the audience hates and 25% doesn't care about it doesn't mean it shouldn't get recognized, thank you all.
10) Or, the only light in this tunnel: JAIME AND BRIENNE COME HERE. First: thank fuck we had that scene where Brienne didn't kill the guy who saw them because at least she doesn't look like she's willing to kill anyone (which could have been gathered from last season). Also well she's not supposed to be that sassy but then again a) Gwen looks too good for that part so I can try to overlook it, b) they banter so deliciously that I can't. Also: NCW is entirely too awesome at his role and sfhfhgdkjghkd the way he sasses Brienne I can't. Also DIJFKFJDGHKD THE SWORD FIIIGHTTTTTT DJKFHSDFHSJHKJFHSKF I wish they had kept the chastising my wife/shall we have this dance quotes but I CAN TOTALLY WORK WITH THIS. Though he has to call her wench before episode five happens plzkthanks. But really, considering everything they're changing *this* part is the one I'm more handwaving about. Now if they keep on that way with Brienne and they stick to the rest of the plot I can totally get behind this.
Also, my otp is flawless. The end.
In conclusion: if Talisa was just GONE I'd enjoy this show a lot more than I currently do since she's fucking with what's in theory my favorite SL after Jaime and Brienne, but as a whole this season seems to be generally better than S2, IF WE DON'T COUNT THE RANDOM BODYSNATCHERS and some plot holes which I suppose they realized later that SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A THING, but for now I can be cool with this. Proved that they don't fuck everything later obviously, but then again we'll see I suppose. But damn, I really wish they kept Jeyne Westerling. Sigh.
premise: no Theon hating k? Just not. Thanks. Also: possible book spoilers though I'm trying to keep it light so thread carefully.
Okay so, general verdict: less all over the place than S2 - as far as it seems - and while there's still stuff I don't like it doesn't seem to be going the clusterfuck way (yet), so I'm going to say I generally liked this except for at least one glaring thing. But more about that in the specific points. So.
1) SOMEONE FINALLY KNOWS THAT BRAN AND RICKON ARE MIA. Just five episodes too late, but alllriiight. The only good thing to come out of this is that when THAT THING HAPPENS Robb won't SPOILER thinking that Theon killed his little brothers, which - well, makes it at least slightly less depressing, but still, what. the. fuck. It should have happened a long time ago.
2) The fact that no one in King's Landing knows makes the Sansa/Tyrells convo look.. well, as a scene in itself it wasn't done badly and also omg Olenna = PERFECT CASTING, but if they don't know that Sansa is actually Robb's heir it makes a lot less sense. Also: WHERE WAS THE BEAR AND THE MAIDEN FAIR, IT WAS THE BEST THING ABOUT THAT SCENE IN THE BOOK. Sorry. But the Sansa/Loras part was done so well.
3) I cackled like crazy during the Joffrey & Margaery scene, okay. Also, poor Cersei. Really. I'm almost feeling bad for how her kid is being like OMG MOM STOP EMBARRASSING ME.
4) The amount of trolling going on with Tyrion and Shae is being out of the world indecent (in every sense of the word). I'm wondering if they're planning on changing a couple of things from the book or if they just want not-book people to punch their screens next season. Mmmh.
5) Meeeh why did they cut so much from the BWB D: Sandor was supposed to show up later, right? D: I mean, I think they could have kept a lot of stuff even if he had showed up like in episode five, but whatever. Beric looks nice, Thoros looks good but is more of a jerk than I remember, please let me have Gendry and Hot Pie forever. Also Arya keeps on being miraculously IC (SOMEONE ELSE WHO'S BEING MORE OR LESS SAVED FROM THE OOC VIRUS), which is good.
6) Bran: yesssssss. The Reeds are totally well cast and I suppose the introduction was as well as it could have been considering the changes. I'm just wondering what's the deal with Osha and Rickon being with them - like, uh, for plot purposes they should be going in the totally opposite direction but then again a) I always thought that Rickon disappearing for three books was bullshit, b) I realize this is television and you can't have a character disappearing for three seasons, so we'll see I guess. There are worse things they could change. Also when he dreamed about Jon and Robb at the beginning ;____;
7) Like Catelyn. Now. Seriously. My current theory is that Talisa has the OOC curse - I.E. whenever someone comes close enough to her to have a conversation they suddenly turned into a bodysnatcher/start acting OOC. Last episode it was Robb and now... Cat is feeling guilty about Jon? Seriously? Okay, uh, just - I think I get it. Or better, I don't *get* it, but I guess they might have done it because since 99% of the reasons people detest Cat and think she's the worst person ever omg go away is that she doesn't like Jon/wasn't a mother to Jon/told Jon THAT quite horrible thing in the books (even if tbh you should take context into account)/thought of Jon - or better, of Jon's possible heirs -as a menace to her own kids first when we all know Jon would kill himself before taking what belongs to his brothers/sisters. So, since everyone-knows-what is happening, they're trying to make Cat more sympathetic to the casual viewer/general audience/people who read the books but are willing to go with their changes by making her regret being mean to Jon or whatever. Which is imo entirely bullshit since if only they had paid more attention/KEPT SOME PLOT POINTS/introduced the Tullys earlier than they are/stopped making Talisa Robb's sensible/pro-peace advisor (that's supposed to be Cat y'all) you wouldn't need to have her regret her behavior to be sympathetic - she has enough reasons on her own for that. Her treatment of Jon is a flaw, but it just makes her human and anyway she has perfectly legitimate medieval-setting reasons for not being entirely cool with the idea of Jon Snow being raised with her kids, though hey I mean it's not like she forbade Ned to do it so just - ugh. WHAT. THE. FUCK. WAS. THAT. Seriously come on. Cat is a good enough character in herself with enough sympathetic traits and who actually can think with her brain and give good advice (SERIOUSLY), you don't need to make her regret not being a mother to Jon to make us like her. Ffs. And this coming from someone who loves Jon, just to state it.
In short: I'll just go blame it on Talisa and on her OOC-turning ways.
8) At least Robb was a bit less of a douche this round (yay, because he's not supposed to), he looked pretty down/depressed (which he should be so double yay), FINALLY KNOWS ABOUT HIS BROTHERS (good too though late) even if when he's all lovey-dovey with Talisa I can't stop rolling my eyes because ugh where's Jeyne W., and HAHAHAHAHAH HIS FACE WHEN THEON WAS BROUGHT UP SERIOUSLY PEOPLE my ship lives forever. Anyway, while I'm still not entirely convinced with this at least Robb's characterization this round wasn't the travesty that last week's was? Small favors.
On that: BRING ON THE TULLYS I've been waiting too long for the Blackfish to happen already. (And to Edmure obviously, but the Blackfish is my favorite forever k.)
9) Since we're on that.
Nope.
I officially can't take an entire season of Theon being tortured OR actually two seasons of... well. you know. I just. Nope. He was in there for maybe five minutes total and it took me fifteen minutes to watch them because I kept pausing while sort of biting on my own fingers and thinking BABY PLEASE NOOOOOOO ;______; like no let's not even get into how he was trying to come up with whatever he thought his torturers wanted to hear because that's bad enough already. But jfc when Ramsay showed up (BECAUSE THAT'S HIM COME ON) and his face was all hopeful and then he was like DON'T LEAVE ME HERE I pretty much died sobbing and decided that next episode will be the death of me because hahahahah THAT'S GOING TO BE A GOOD ESCAPE TENTATIVE WON'T IT. Just leave me here to sob and wish I could cover Theon in cupcakes or something because seriously. Nope. No. Nada. Can't. Do. That.
And I have AN ENTIRE MORE SEASON OF THIS and then if they get to S4 it's probably Reek time and I'M NOT - NOOOOOPEEEEEE.
And btw, there are already assholes on tumblr thinking that he deserves it and they're happy to see it. Thus starts the two months of throwing up in my mouth. /o\
And the thing is that I can't even complain because a) no one's getting character assassinated, b) as far as we know from the book it's totally plausible that some part of what we didn't see went like this. Fuck everything. I can't.
Last thing: someone give Alfie Allen ONE FUCKING INDIVIDUAL AWARD THIS SEASON because he's fucking *good* and just because he happens to play a dude that 70% of the audience hates and 25% doesn't care about it doesn't mean it shouldn't get recognized, thank you all.
10) Or, the only light in this tunnel: JAIME AND BRIENNE COME HERE. First: thank fuck we had that scene where Brienne didn't kill the guy who saw them because at least she doesn't look like she's willing to kill anyone (which could have been gathered from last season). Also well she's not supposed to be that sassy but then again a) Gwen looks too good for that part so I can try to overlook it, b) they banter so deliciously that I can't. Also: NCW is entirely too awesome at his role and sfhfhgdkjghkd the way he sasses Brienne I can't. Also DIJFKFJDGHKD THE SWORD FIIIGHTTTTTT DJKFHSDFHSJHKJFHSKF I wish they had kept the chastising my wife/shall we have this dance quotes but I CAN TOTALLY WORK WITH THIS. Though he has to call her wench before episode five happens plzkthanks. But really, considering everything they're changing *this* part is the one I'm more handwaving about. Now if they keep on that way with Brienne and they stick to the rest of the plot I can totally get behind this.
Also, my otp is flawless. The end.
In conclusion: if Talisa was just GONE I'd enjoy this show a lot more than I currently do since she's fucking with what's in theory my favorite SL after Jaime and Brienne, but as a whole this season seems to be generally better than S2, IF WE DON'T COUNT THE RANDOM BODYSNATCHERS and some plot holes which I suppose they realized later that SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A THING, but for now I can be cool with this. Proved that they don't fuck everything later obviously, but then again we'll see I suppose. But damn, I really wish they kept Jeyne Westerling. Sigh.
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Date: 2013-04-09 12:23 pm (UTC)1) Don't have much to say about this, other than I really liked that scene and also the fact that Robb at least still has enough faith in Theon to believe he might have taken them with him if he returned to the Iron Islands. <3
2) I have to say I absolutely loved every scene that the Tyrells were in this episode (whereas in the previous ep I might have been a bit uninterested). And yes, Olenna is perfect. xD Are we going to meet her son this season too? (I totally forgot if he makes an appearance in the 3rd book; I know he does in the 4th) Tbh, I never cared THAT much about the Tyrells in the books (I thought they were ok, but nothing more), but I think the show might actually make me love them, lol.
3) While I found Joffrey quite hilarious in the previous episode, he's totally back to being a creepy psycho again. The way he spoke to Margaery (especially the "What about the bedside of a traitor? Is that a place for a lady?" bit where he went from a sweet tone to brutally cold in a heartbeat) was some phenomenal acting (Jack deserves all the awards, seriously).
And omg, don't even get me started on Margaery! I loved her so much. You can see that the girl really knows what she's doing and how great she is at manipulating people. She's kinda like Cersei except less cruel and bitter. She knows exactly how to play Joffrey (acting a bit dumb - "I'm a bit lost when it comes to politics"; acting obedient - "I was just trying to do my duty as a wife"; etc.) She even knew that cruelty/suffering/death would get him "excited", so she played the "would you like to see me kill an animal in cold blood" card. Seriously, props to her cunning. I also loved the fact that when Joffrey said he was thinking of making Renly's "type of perversion" punishable by death, you could see that moment of hesitation and shock (because Loras), but she recovered so quickly with that "you must do what needs to be done" line.
4) I don't really care much about Tyrion/Shae, so their scene was a bit whatever to me, but I did find Tyrion's mumbling (when talking about Sansa) funny.
5) Wait, did I miss something? Because I didn't see Beric at all. And Thoros reminded me of Bronn a bit (in his personality and actions). Idk, I like him. Also, yes, the Gendry/Arya/Hot Pie trio forever plz! I will be crushed when Arya leaves them (I was already sad about this in the books, but I feel like it's going to be even worse for me when I see it happen on the show). ;__;
1/?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 12:50 pm (UTC)7) I'm kind of torn about this scene. On one hand, it seriously irritates me that they changed Cat this much when it comes to Jon, but on the other hand, I didn't find the scene itself as horrible either (like, it was kind of enjoyable to me). That being said, I do wish they just left Cat's characterisation to what it was in the books. As you pointed out, Cat doesn't NEED to regret her actions and feelings towards Jon, because they are completely understandable! Just look at the other Snow bastard we know - he fucking killed his legitimate brother (and his father believes he would have killed any others if he had them, so he simply doesn't have any more; that's as fucked up as it can get).
8) Just wanted to point out here that every Robb/Talisa moment makes me roll my eyes (and this episode was no different).
I'm skipping nr. 9 for now because it's going to be so long that I'm gonna write about it in my next reply.
10) OMG, CAN I JUST ASDFGHJKLAJASFJ?!! I loved their scenes so much! x33 Jaime/Brienne are seriously the best. And at least they didn't assassinate their book counterparts. The sass is amazing. The only thing I'm worried about is the fact that there's no Vargo Hoat and his Bloody Mummers. Because I have a feeling they're gonna have to cut a lot of stuff now. Like the scene where Jaime basically saves Brienne from rape by talking about her father's sapphires and how they weren't gonna get paid if Brienne isn't still a maid after they return her. Also, we won't get to see (or at least hear about) Brienne biting off Vargo's ear. or Jaime making fun of his lisp (come on, that would have been awesome). I'm also curious as to how Jaime will lose his hand now. I guess we'll just have to see.
Everything is Jaime/Brienne and nothing hurts (yet). Except Theon. ;__;
2/?
no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 01:26 pm (UTC)Get this, though. One of my friends IRL is a massive ASOIAF fan and we basically discuss stuff every time an episode airs. And this time he said that he feels Theon's torture wasn't really shown as severe and gruesome enough because it seemed much worse in the books. He was like "in the books, it said he was supposed to be ruined and unrecognizable". I wanted to punch him. He's fucking unrecognizable at THE END. This is just the fucking beginning, I don't know what my friend was expecting (or what he wants). This was already horrible enough. Jfc!
What I don't entirely understand is what they're planning on doing with Ramsay. From what I gathered, I imagine they're going to be replacing the Kyra/Theon escape with this. As in, Ramsay will actually "help him escape", simply because he wants a good hunt. And then when he catches him, he'll start to torture him himself (punishing him for escaping, even though he was the one to actually instigate the escape). Because lbr, if they want to show Ramsay to be as big a psycho as he is in the books, he needs to be the one to do the actual torture. He fucking enjoys it when he inflicts pain on other people with his own two hands, not when his lackeys do it for him. While I absolutely hate seeing Theon suffer, that's what happened in the books. And I want them to follow that, even if I don't actually want to see it. ;__; Hope that makes sense.
Urgh, the assholes on tumblr make my blood boil! >__> You know when you mentioned that a lot of people hate Cat just because she was mean to Jon? Well, I find that a lot of these people are the same ones that are also saying Theon deserves all this (and even cheering for Ramsay, dear god). What pisses me off is the fact that very often THE ONLY reason for saying that is the fact that it was THE STARKS that got betrayed by Theon. Seriously, if he betrayed any other house (like the Lannisters, for example), he wouldn't get hated on nearly as much (and might even get praised by some). Like, I get it that the Starks are kind of supposed to be the family you root for (the "good guys" if you will), but to hate on every character that ever opposes them (for that reason alone) is ridiculous! I love a lot of the Starks (and Jon), but that doesn't mean I can't understand where other houses and characters are coming from when they go against them (or that I can't like or sympathise with these characters). These people piss me off so much, but I try not to get involved with them, because I know they'll never listen, anyway. They're too closed-minded to see it any other way. >__>
Btw, I'm also curious as to what my mom will think of Theon after this season (she's only watching the show, not reading the books). When I watched the second season with her, she made a comment about how mean and evil Theon was (for taking Winterfell, burning those 2 kids, etc.) Back then I told her that something horrible is coming up for him. She said "Well, whatever it is, I'm sure he'll deserve it" (she said that without knowing what it was, obviously) and I just kinda went "I'm not sure you'll still think so once you see it. Trust me, NOBODY deserves what happens to Theon." So yeah, I'm wondering how she'll react now.
3/3
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Date: 2013-04-09 02:08 pm (UTC).... haha. Like. This is the beginning. Obviously it won't be as bad as the infamous Reek Chapter The First, which means it's just going to get worse and if people think that we're getting it easy then I suppose I can only say sweet summer children? Seriously? And yeah I think next week the escape will be substituting the Kyra one, but didn't it say that he actually tried to escape more than once/Ramsay went on supposed *hunts* more than once and that's how he lost his toes? Like he got one cut whenever he was caught again? I might be wrong though, I haven't re-read the Reek chapters in ages because I can't really take it on page, but since we have a whole season of this I'm afraid that this won't be the first escape try we see...
Hahah. I'm making myself want to retch. Help. And yeah we're totally going to see Ramsay in action very soon I think D: and yeah I totally get the point, but I think that after the initial mindfucking he's going to do it himself. Which.. ugh. I just hatehatehate the idea that Theon actually trusts him (even for like ten minutes or how long it is) and THEN HE GETS FUCKED ALL OVER AGAIN I CAN'TTTT.
... oh dear, they're the same breed? I should say that I'm surprised but I'm really not. Also it makes me go crazy that they cheer for Ramsay because... like, Ramsay is everything they accuse Theon of being (rapist, [child] murderer etcetera) except that Theon did crappy stuff because he got himself stuck into a situation where he could only dig his own grave and he actually regrets it and didn't enjoy doing any of that (I'd also just like to point out that the infamous scene with Kyra was after he had that dream with Robb covered in blood going towards him so.. well, while I don't excuse the action in itself I don't think he'd have gone that far if he actually was in his right mind), RAMSAY ACTUALLY LIKES DOING THAT SO WHY WOULD YOU EVEN CHEER FOR HIM I CAN'T. Or say that Theon deserves it in the first place, but - no seriously it's just mind-boggling that you'd cheer for Ramsay when he's obviously the worst between the two, NOT TO MENTION THAT UUUHMMM WAIT RAMSAY/ROOSE BETRAYED THE STARKS AS WELL *COUGH*. And jesus yes I'm fine when people criticize because of *real* reasons (ie he's an ass to women, he's unlikeable, he kills two children etcetera) BUT UGH THIS *HE BETRAYED THE STARKS* thing is just so totally pointless. Other than it being that he betrayed *Robb*, not *the Starks* since it's not like he owed them anything, seriously, WHY IT'S JUST HIM. I mean, I've never seen the hordes of Targaryen fans around asking for Tywin's head because RHAEGAR'S CHILDREN and because he basically did that to gain favor with Robert after having been Aerys' Hand for ages, so.. why. Just. They'll never see it differently I guess but woah just stop. PS: this comes from a totally pro-Stark person whose favorite character is Robb, oops. Can't others just look at both sides? Sigh.
Lol I'm the same with some friends actually - they haven't read the books (or never got as far as ADWD) and they mostly detest him (which tbh is still mind-boggling to me because after the first three episodes of S2 I don't see how you can't notice where Theon is coming from, but what can you do), and I'm always like 'please don't, you'll regret it' so maybe I can actually hope that a) they see what I meant, b) THEY STOP HATING ON HIM damn it. ;) Also I have a friend whose mom was of the same mind and when she got to ADWD she was like 'SOMEONE KILL RAMSAY' so I hope yours as a similar change of opinion.. ;)
no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 04:26 pm (UTC)"I just hatehatehate the idea that Theon actually trusts him (even for like ten minutes or how long it is) and THEN HE GETS FUCKED ALL OVER AGAIN I CAN'TTTT." <-- Ugh, THIS! I forgot to add this last time. Just imagine trusting the only person who seems to be on your side in this fucked up situation and then finding out it was actually THAT PERSON who ORDERED your torture and was responsible for it and then tortures you with their own hands! ;___; God, I can already see myself crying because of this when it happens on the show. ;__;
But on the other hand, it actually makes Ramsay into an even bigger sadistic psycho (if that was possible), at least for the TV audience. Because honestly, what kind of a person is fucked up enough to make a person trust them and to give hope to a person, only to fuck them over and take that all away by revealing yourself as the cause for that person's suffering in the first place and then inflicting even more pain on them?! It makes me sick just thinking about it. :S
Well, not ALL of them are the same breed, but some definitely are. I've seen it with my own eyes. Yes, exactly! I'm perfectly fine with people hating characters for legitimate reasons. To be honest, there are very few characters in this series that are completely irredeemable and fucked up, and those are the only characters I can't sympathise with or I hate (like Joffrey, Ramsay, The Mountain...) While I dislike some other characters as well (Tywin and Cersei, for example), I can still understand where they're coming from. Besides, if you hated every character that ever did something bad, you wouldn't have many candidates for you to like in this series, anyway. Seriously, name one characters that has been completely "good". I think Ned Stark and Barristan Selmy come the closest to being the most moral characters, but even they have done some "bad" things. What also bothers me (and you kinda pointed this out already) is that when one character does something morally questionable, they hate on him, but when another one does it, it's fine (they even make up excuses). Double standards much?!
This kind of applies to people who hate Jaime too. I think some people will never move past the fact that he threw Bran out the window and attacked Ned. I'm not saying those things should just be forgotten/erased, all I'm saying is that try to understand his reasoning and acknowledge the fact that he has also done good/unselfish things. The good doesn't erase the bad, but neither does the bad erase the good, so people need to stop acting like it does.
Well, I just spoke to my mom on the phone (she just finished watching the episode) and she said to me, distraught "oh my god, why are they torturing Theon?!" I stopped myself from saying "Told you so". A while ago, I also told her that there is a character she will probably hate even more than Joffrey that appears in season 3 and today she asked "Where is the evil character you said was even worse than Joffrey?" But I decided not to tell her who he was, so I just said that he was briefly shown in this episode, but that he hasn't been revealed as "evil" yet. I just told her to wait an episode or two and she'll see. I want her to be shocked by the reveal of Ramsay.
Oh, I just remembered something else. A while ago, I sent you a message via tumblr after seeing you post something about Theon being raped, but you never replied. I'm not sure if that was because tumblr didn't deliver my message (it's been known to happen to me), or because you just didn't want to talk about it. Either way, I asked what made you think Ramsay also raped Theon, in addition to torturing him. I said that there was a line in the book that made me pause a bit and consider this option as well, but then later on, I dismissed it, because I got the feeling that Ramsay only raped women. So I wanted to hear your thoughts on this.
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Date: 2013-04-09 05:02 pm (UTC)YES OH MY GOD THAT'S EVEN WORSE though well technically in the book he had gained Theon's trust before stabbing him in the back - except that in the show it's just gonna be worse because y'know the setting and I CAN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT I WANT TO VOMIT WHYYYYYY DDDD: no seriously I need Robb to get back there and walk in on the scene and decide on the spot that what's happened until now was punishment enough okay DDD: (yeaaaah I wish)
And as I read on tumblr before.. I pity the poor Misfits fans who are watching this just for Iwan Rheon and have no idea of what's going to happen DDDD:
Meh I'm pretty much with you on the people I can't ever think could be redeemed and people I detest whose motivations I understand - and yeah exactly if you hated everyone who did something wrong you could only like Sam, Davos and Brienne I think XDDD everyone else *has* done something wrong at some point, you can't really watch/read this expecting great examples of morality from everyone. And same - tbh Ned did a bunch of stupid stuff and I say it while really loving him, so it's not like everyone's flawless. And oh dear don't get me started on Jaime - he used to be my second-favorite when I started reading the entire thing and I never said that I excused him throwing Bran off the window. That was low, but I still liked him as a character and YOU COULDN'T SAY IT OUT LOUD AND EVERYONE WOULD GO 'WHY ARE YOU EXCUSING THAT CHILD MURDERED WITHOUT MORALS WHO FUCKS HIS SISTER' and... I really hope that the current season will get Jaime some more love from non-book readers. Because I srsly really love the guy WHILE knowing he's not an entirely 100% good person, but IT'S NORMAL FFS, I DON'T HAVE TO EXCUSE HIM.
... well, seems like she's coming around! ;) but yeah don't spoil her. Until then at least. XDDD
Wait I actually answered that post O__O and I tagged it twice just to be sure but tumblr apparently decided not to show you? But no it was a totally cool question and I was totally fine with talking about it, wait a moment I'm gonna fish for it. Aaaand here you go (http://janiedean.tumblr.com/post/47023319994/so-you-think-theon-was-raped-during-his-torture#notes) ;) it's stuff I might have considered meta-ing fully about with quotes and stuff but I never went into it because I can't bring myself to re-read the first three Reek chapters, oops. Anyway if you want to discuss it further it's totally okay ;)
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Date: 2013-04-09 06:48 pm (UTC)Oh dear, definitely. Did you watch Misfits as well, btw? I did and when I found out that Rheona was cast as someone (not knowing yet it was Ramsay), I got very excited, but then I got the details and just went "OH GOD NO!" DDD: But I guess he can portray that psychopathic look very well (seriously, his looks as Simon gave me some serious creeps at the beginning of Misfits) and he's got the pale eyes to boot.
Well, to be honest, he wasn't one of my favourites, but I never exactly hated him (maybe momentarily for that whole "pushing Bran out the window" thing). It was more that I didn't care much about his character. But once we got his POV, I totally fell in love. He was just rising up my favourite character ladder until he eventually landed top spot, lol. xD But, I mean, these types of flawed characters are what makes this series so great. You don't have the fairytale good vs. evil (where some people are completely good and others completely evil). You have actual HUMAN characters. Which is probably why I have so many favourites, tbh.
Looks like tumblr messed up, because that post didn't show up in my tag (I track my own tag precisely because of replies, such as yours, but I didn't get notified). -__-;
Well, I'm just going to reply here. Just to clarify one thing first: I used the word "rape-y" in my message because I couldn't find the correct term, but you described it way better - the word I meant was "sexualized". And to answer your question as to which scene I meant, yes, I think it was that one - after Theon came back from (was it Deepwood Motte? I forgot) a mission where he had to secure one of those holds for him (gain it back from the Ironborn) and he succeeded. The way he hugged him (and I think he even kissed his cheek) seemed very sexualized. And then if you couple that together with Theon's thoughts at that moment... He was thinking about Ramsay's smell, I think, and that his words/voice sounded almost sweet. That seemed like something a rape victim in Theon's situation (who has developed a certain level of Stockholm syndrome) might think. So yeah, that was the scene that made me go "woah, did Ramsay abuse him sexually too?" O__o
Hmm, in the scene with Jeyne, I always just assumed that forcing Theon to go down on Jeyne with his mouth was as far as he went with him that night (but that he did a lot of absolutely horrible things to Jeyne), but of course, there's no way for us to know for sure. About Ramsay's relationship with Reek 1.0, though - you think they had a sexual relationship as well? Really? I never got that impression. But maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention to those bits?
As for Theon supposedly being castrated, I think you might be right that it's not as severe as most people think. I remember a line from Ramsay from the wedding night. After Theon had to strip Jeyne, he said something along the lines of "Are you hard?" (that's not the exact quote, because I don't have the books here atm) and, sure, he could be making a sick dig at Theon for not being able to have an erection anymore due to lack of a penis, but it would make more sense to me if Ramsay worded it differentle if that was the case. Something like "Not being able to get hard, eh?" or whatever.
This is obviously all just speculation, though.
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Date: 2013-04-09 07:37 pm (UTC)No, I didn't watch it because the moment I heard the casting and he started showing up on my dash in his apparently most creepy moments I went like I CAN'T DO THIS, but maaaaybe one day I might give it a try since I've been told I'd like it. And from the gifs I've seen he's actually a good cast for that so I don't have doubts that he's going to do well, it's just that I was in no hurry to see live action Ramsay any time ;)
Lol the thing is that I either like ridiculously nice people (IE Robb) or I go for the questionable morals person with a sense of humor, so while I suppose that saying that I started to like Jaime because he cracked me up might sound kind of ridiculous.. that's kind of what happened? but idk I just was really *fascinated* by the guy and his attitude and everything (and when he showed up with the 'there are no men like me' thing in acok I was all like PLEASE CAN I HAVE YOUR POV), then I got his POV and I was over the moon. XD I live a Jaime appreciation life and regret nothing, but it's not like I think he's a genuinely good dude and he doesn't have to be.
Yeah it did the same to me a bit ago - I saw a couple of friends tagging me but it never showed up on the tag wtf =___=''' *hates on tumblr*
That said no problem, I totally got what you meant with that ;) and yeaaaaah IT WAS WHEN HE CAME BACK FROM DEEPWOOD MOTTE AND RAMSAY TOTALLY KISSED HIM ON THE CHEEK OR SOMETHING and like Theon was thinking stuff that made me totally go 'OH SHIT NO IT'S ACTUALLY HAPPENED I CAN'T', it was sexualized indeed DDDD: not to mention that Theon was no stranger to stockholm syndrome either *cough* the Starks *cough* but with Ramsay/when he was seriously into the Reek persona it was just so blatant, ew. Aaand well with Jeyne it was using the term largely - I mean, if you force someone to rape someone else you're still *forcing* them so you're also raping them even if you don't have a hand in it, if it makes sense - but then there was a point in the other chapter where he mentioned (in his head obviously) the things they did in the wedding night for a moment and then he was like NOPE NO NOT THINKING ABOUT IT GO AWAY and he didn't dwell. Which makes me think that a lot more stuff happened DDD: and I don't even want to know about tbh, I'll be happy with never ever knowing. Then again that's also half the reason why I think that the supposed castration hints are rape hints - he couldn't bring himself to think about the wedding night the same way he can't think about *that other thing* Ramsay supposedly took from him, so.. DDD:
Also mmh idk from what I recall of that story it seemed to me that if it wasn't sexual then they were pretty damn fucking close/platonic/UST-ish (though if they were a thing I think they were consensual. Or as consensual as it goes.).
Most people interpret it as Ramsay mocking him because there's actually nothing down there, but.. well, it might also be that he doesn't get hard because after all that abuse he just doesn't anymore. Or something similar. But still, at some point in the last chapter Theon was thinking about a spearwife that had told him something not too nice and he was like 'if only I could throw you over the table and fuck you', and it sounded more 'I wish I had strength enough to do it because if I did it as I am right now you'd kill me' rather than 'I can't do it because I don't have the equipment' (gosh this sounds horrible, sorry /o\). Also I still think that no one who had been castrated could have survived in his conditions - I can buy that he would because of the cold/without fingers/without getting infections, but castration in a medieval setting? Fuck I mean I doubt many people would realistically survive it in normal circumstances if not done correctly (and if *Ramsay* did it I really doubt it would have been), least of all in THOSE. Then again I'm totally speculating as well, but I'm not buying the castration thing until GRRM spells it out loud for me.
... wow, I can't believe I actually have this much to say about THAT subject /o\ ... ops?
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Date: 2013-04-09 09:40 pm (UTC)Oh, that's understandable. I think it's a good thing I've seen Misfits BEFORE he was cast on GOT. Because I loved his character there.
Re Jaime - yeah, exactly. And it's not like good/nice characters with strong ethical morals aren't some of my favourites either (Jon's in my top 5), but morally flawed characters do have an inclination to end up taking like the top 3 favourite characters spots for me. :P
Oh, I see. Yeah, I guess those could be indications of sexual abuse. I also remember another scene where it made me feel that Ramsay was acting in a sexualized way towards Theon. Idk if you saw it that way too, but in that scene where Roose declares that he's taking Theon away from Ramsay and when Ramsay leaves, he stops by Theon (who is chained to the wall, I think, dear god) and then gets all up in his face and says something (don't exactly remember what anymore, but I think it was something like "I'll be getting you back and when I do, I'll torture you for this") in a hushed voice. I'd have to reread (which I don't think I'll be able to for a long time tbh) to know for sure if it gave me sexual vibes, but I think it did.
"I mean, if you force someone to rape someone else you're still *forcing* them so you're also raping them even if you don't have a hand in it, if it makes sense" <-- oh, I know what you mean. I hadn't thought about it that way before, but you're right. :S
Yeah, I'm sure if there was something sexual between Ramsay and the original Reek, it was definitely consensual, because they were kind of like a psychopathic duo (psycho bros) who both enjoyed inflicting pain (and I don't think Reek would let himself be raped by Ramsay).
Oh yeah, I see. Like I said, I don't really believe he was castrated either, but I always felt like I was the only who thought so and I was starting to think I only believe that way because I WANT it to not be true, not because it actually isn't. But you gave me some valid reasosn just now.
Don't worry about it. I know these topics can affect some people pretty badly, so I was a bit reluctant to bring it up in the first place, but I don't really mind if it's discussed in detail (like, it doesn't trigger anything beyond what torture and rape generally trigger in most people - horror and disgust). Hope that made sense.
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Date: 2013-04-09 10:12 pm (UTC)Yeah I probably should have watched it when my entire flist was raving about it, damn it.
Lol exactly - I mean like 3/5 of my top five is robb/brienne/davos so I obviously have a type, BUT I ALSO LIKE CHARMING MORALLY GRAY ASSHOLES WITH A HUMOR OKAY ;)
... right. Yes. That one totally counts too. DDDD: uuughhhh I can't even. and seriously Theon being freaked at Roose actually showing him some kindness (not for real obviously but y'know) was so fucking terrifying DDD: yes it definitely gave the sexual vibes as well, but then again Ramsay is always all *my* Reek here and *my* Reek there and idk if you'd be that possessive when.. well. You aren't also.. ugh well as far as I see it Ramsay sees it as owning Theon completely so that'd probably count for sexually too? Mostly the wedding night thing is.. I generally try not to think about it too hard because I swear I was about to vomit on the book when I read the last page, but when people argue that *it's not true that Ramsay raped Theon how do you even say that*... well, you have textual evidence of the contrary at least in one occasion D:
Yeah I generally see it as a totally psychopathic consensual thing, except that as you stated Reek the first wasn't going to let Ramsay have the upper hand so.. er. I think Ramsay/Theon is sorta reversed? In the sense that Ramsay thinks that he's being to Theon what Reek the first was to him except that Theon was never on board with it.
Nah, it's at least me, you and a guy on the westeros.org forum who thought the same (I usually don't go there because it's full of crazies but while reading adwd I realized that there were people who actually remembered prophecies and shit so I always went to read the single chapter discussion to see if I might have missed something xD), so hey it's three! ;) I actually kind of wanted to write some serious meta on it because since everyone assumes the contrary I figured I'd share the two cents, but as stated I should re-read the Theon adwd chapters and seriously I'd rather re-read the Red Wedding ten times D:
Actually.. it's not even that it *affects* me beyond the general want to vomit either - I mean, THANKFULLY I never experienced any of that so I'm just generally disgusted because I like to think I have some empathy), it's just that realizing that I've just written three paragraphs discussing the reasons why someone might *not* have been castrated always makes me feel weird. Or at least like I've crossed some fandom line that I can't ever take back ;)
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Date: 2013-04-09 10:59 pm (UTC)Yes, I forgot to mention that. All that possessiveness gave me a weird feeling too, but I just kinda put it down to Ramsay being a psycho and not looking at it much from a sexual perspective. I think this conversation has basically made me go from "hmm, I believe there is like a 20% chance that Theon was sexually abused" to "nope, I'm almost 100% certain that he was". DD:
Which makes me think... Do you think there's any chance they'll try to hint at that in the show as well? I don't think they'd actually show anything explicitly in that regard, but maybe hinting at it with words and stuff? :S
Yeah, I think that actually makes sense (in a very twisted way).
Ah, I see. I guess we'll also see if we ever actually find out for sure what happened regarding this. Although maybe we're better off not knowing tbh.
I kinda know what you mean. There have been so many fucked up things in these books, I sometimes ask myself why did I even start reading them in the first place. Seriously, every time something horrible happened, I was sure nothing could top it, but then a few chapters later, I was proven to be wrong (much to my shock and horror). But the Reek chapters were absolutely the worst for me. When I started readign the first one, I honestly couldn't believe it and I had to stop quite a few times throughout just to compose myself and process all the terror. Yeah, I don't think ANYTHING in these books can top Theon's abuse in the "oh god, this is making me sick and making me want to cry at the same time, please make it stop, why is this happening, god no, this is so fucked up" department.
I will never understand how Martin was able to write these things. Like, it was so hard for me to read them, imagine having to fucking WRITE them and PUT YOURSELF INTO THEON'S MINDSET AS REEK... just, how?!
There was a thread I stumbled upon on Reddit, titled something like "What is, in your opinion, the most horrible thing that has happened in the books so far?" and people were bringing up so many different things... It made me realise how many fucked up things have happened in this series. What made me incredibly mad was the fact that someone replied the worst thing was Theon's torture and then somebody else replied that while it was horrible, it wasn't the worst, because at least it only happened to one person and it was instigated by only one individual as well, whereas the 100-something murdered slave children of Meereen (with their heads on spikes) was institutionalised cruelty that happened to so many people (innocent children nonetheless), so it was worse. This might be biased, but I kind of want to punch anyone who says that the Theon torture wasn't the worse, because IT WAS! At least the children all had quick deaths (as in, they didn't suffer through months of abuse to the point of completely losing their fucking identity and being reduced to a shell of their former self and being forced to live with their abuser), jfc!
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:14 pm (UTC)... er. Uhm. So. There's a pretty detailed spoiler about what happens next episode with Theon that someone with the screeners wrote on winteriscoming.net which makes me think that if D&D thought it happened (and sadly their Theon headcanon seem to be the only one with whom mine coincides) then we're definitely going to see it (hopefully not in detail) and... I really... uuuuuh I'm really not ever looking forward to it DDD: except that since I'm the one saying that I'm sure it happened I can't even curse at them too much. Also.. ops. Sorry for upping those percentages. I think alcohol is needed. D:
I sincerely hope that either we're confirmed that I'm right or I'd rather never know. Thanks. Really. I don't need to know. D:
Jesus same for me. I swear I was sure Theon was dead when I got there (also I wasn't his biggest stan before admittedly), and as I read everything from 1 to 4 in like three weeks and I didn't even remember that Ramsay was posing with the Reek name in acok, when I saw Reek on the chapter I was like 'who the fuck is this even', I felt incredibly uncomfortable for the next few pages while being like 'should I know who this is'. Aaand then I realized who it was and I went like WAIT WHAT THE FUCK WHAT IS THIS WHAT HAPPENED NO NO NO I NEVER THOUGHT HE DESERVED THIS WAIT CAN WE NOT and like seriously the moment Ramsay showed up and started being touchy-feely I think I had forgotten everything except PLEASE DON'T. Then it just got worse DDD: not getting into the wanting to vomit even more when I realized that Theon was twenty-two and I was about to turn 23 a month later... like seriously I suppose it shows that I'm still not over it D: just I swear that at the last page of Ramsay's wedding I went on skype to find the only other person I knew who was reading it at the same time and was two chapters behind me and I went like GO READ THE PRINCE OF WINTERFELL AND TELL ME I IMAGINED IT and then he was like 'ugh no you didn't' and I still think I haven't read anything as disturbing as that. And omg I know, I've written a fair share of fic with post-Reek Theon and I was feeling pain even when I wasn't doing his POV and it was POST-Reek, HOW DOES GRRM DO THAT SERIOUSLY I CAN'T. No really there's nothing as bad as that D:
... also hahahah what. Anything that implies a quick death is BETTER THAN GETTING TORTURED UNTIL YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE ANYMORE WHILE YOUR ABUSER HAS DECIDED THAT HE WANTS TO *OWN* YOU DOWN TO THE BASIC FUNCTIONS WTF. Can't. And seriously I said that before, but 22 year old guy looking like he's sixty = doesn't compute. Like seriously just that should be enough to make someone sick D:
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:33 pm (UTC)Oh my god, wow. O__o Not sure I want to see this tbh. Btw, could you link me to the actual spoiler? I'd like to read it for myself. (It's ok if it's too much bother, though) Well, the thing with D&D and Theon is, I read an interview with D&D once and they were asked which ASOIAF character they were most like and one of them answered Theon (and that he was his fav character as well), which made me really happy because I thought there was no way they were going to fuck up his storyline and deviate from the books too much if one of them loves Theon. Now I'm kinda starting to wish that wasn't completely the case. I mean, I do want them to follow the books and not change characters' personalities and storylines, but... you know. :S
Well, Theon was one of my faves from the beginning (except he wasn't quite as high on my list as he is now), so I was incredibly distraught when he was just like... missing for two books. I believed he wasn't dead, but I was starting to fear he might be (especially since everyone in the books thought so). I was like you, though, when I read the name REEK as the title of the chapter - I was like "who the fuck is this? is it another new character?" but it hit me VERY early on in the chapter that it might be Theon. I just had a sudden "oh god, is this THEON?!!" moment. "please don't let it be Theon. I have to be wrong", but I wasn't and I just... no.
Tbh, I just kinda erase that whole "looks like a 60 year old" from my mind. Because it's just hard for me to imagine that a fucking 22 year old could look like that. Like, HOW?! DD: I'm sure they won't quite go that way on the show at least.
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:42 pm (UTC)Also sure thing! The spoiler is in this thread (http://winteriscoming.net/2013/03/new-30-second-promo-gives-us-lots-of-dragon-action/), you're probably better off using the search function. Just look up Ramsay and read the comments by the user named Fire and Blood where the name shows up, there's... well, a lot D: also friendly advice: don't read the other commenters' opinion because after one saying that Theon needed some 'quality raping time' I was about done. :/
also HAHAHAHHHAHAHA YEAH at least he won't get too fucked up with his SL but YOU'D WISH THEY'D GO EASIER ON HIM RIGHT D: at least they're never going to ask Alfie to look like a 60 year old person which is a thing I suppose, but I swear just thinking that he was my age and looked like *that* was enough to get me sick uuuggghhh.
I'll admit that I totally misread his stuff in acok - like, I sort of was feeling for him at the end and when everyone was putting him down in the beginning but I had little sympathy throughout, but I blame it on the fact that I pretty much read through GOT/ACOK/ASOS in two weeks and when I didn't immediately like someone I just didn't pay enough attention so that I could read quickly. Then I had a re-read of his COK stuff and I was like SERIOUSLY SELF WHAT WERE YOU THINKING NOOO HE WAS ALREADY INTERESTING THEN DDD: but anyway I was really sure he had died offscreen by the time I reached adwd, I didn't realize it was him until the two little Walders showed up and then it hit me and 'aaaaaaah NOOOOOOOOO'. DDDD:
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Date: 2013-04-10 12:06 am (UTC)Yeah, I can totally understand that.
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Date: 2013-04-10 12:16 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-10 12:25 am (UTC)Ugh, are they for real?!! They're using free speech as an excuse?! No, just... no. No comment tbh. >__>
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Date: 2013-04-10 12:30 am (UTC)Yeah. Uhm freedom of speech doesn't justify everything last I checked *facepalm forever*
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Date: 2013-04-09 01:53 pm (UTC)7) Thing is, in itself (and probably in the show's context) it wasn't a bad scene and the acting was good and everything but.. WHY. I don't get why you have to take away Cat's feelings re Jon and change them like that just because you think it makes her sympathetic - seriously, she's good enough on her own, there's no need to make her extra sympathetic by adding her feeling sorry about Jon when she had all the reasons not to be cool with him around. (Sure, she could have done without wishing that he had died instead of Bran, but a) CONTEXT, b) it wasn't in the show, c) everyone makes mistakes so if the audience still hates her for it well bad for them, but I don't see the need to change *that* just so that casual viewers might like her more. Then again it's depressing that her opinion of Jon is 90% of the reason why she's that hated..) And yeah exactly :/ I read some interesting meta where they pointed out an interesting thing about that which was basically that Cat was mostly worried about Jon's *children* claiming their part of inheritance if he ever was legitimized rather than Jon himself (I mean I suppose she knows that he loves his siblings), which is actually perfectly reasonable, so.. yeah. And HAHAH EXACTLY I MEAN COME ON RAMSAY SNOW TOTALLY SETS A LOVELY EXAMPLE. (And then Roose goes like 'don't make me regret the day I raped your mother' and in comparison the Greyjoys seem like a functional family unit...)
8) Me too. I can't deal with the lovey-dovey stuff uuugggggghhhhhhhh. Then again I can't deal with Talisa in the first place, so. *sigh*
10) DSGFDGJHDJKFGJKFDHGKJDFGK IKR GHFJKDGHJGHKJDFHGKFDHJ THOSE TWO ARE THE BEST EVERRRR <333333333 I love everything about it <3333 and mmmhh I read some review done by bloggers who had seen the first five eps and apparently there's no Vargo and no thappireth (sadly), but also Jaime does apparently save Brienne from the raping so at least they kept half of it? Let's hope. But it bodes well I have to say. ;)
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Date: 2013-04-09 03:27 pm (UTC)I want that scene from the books where Stannis talks to Davos and understands him and then names him Hand. And I want it now! It better happen (soon). It one of my favourite Davos/Stannis scenes.
7) Yeah, that's kind of what I meant. In the context of the show, it doesn't seem forced or too far-fetched. Also, yes to everything else you've said here, though. "and in comparison the Greyjoys seem like a functional family unit." <-- yeah, dear lord. Or the Lannisters. Is ANY family in this series a completely functional unit, though? Lmao! I guess the Starks come close, but then Jon was kind of an outsider AND they had Theon as a prisoner. The Tyrells seem to be a pretty good family unit too (sure, they sabotage other people, but I mean, WITHIN their own family, they seem to be pretty caring and whatnot).
10) Oh, I assumed there was going to be no rape because the people who captured them seem to have a bit higher morals than the Bloody Mummers, but I guess I was wrong. Well, either way, if Jaime saves her from getting raped, I'll be happy. :) Yeah, I feel like from what I've seen from the trailers, they're actually going to be following their story pretty close to the books (there was a bath scene in one of the trailers, the bear in another, etc) and I couldn't have asked for more. :D
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Date: 2013-04-09 06:11 pm (UTC)I want the Stannis and Davos scene too DDDDD:
No it didn't in show-context but I still don't see the need to go there if I make any sense. Also ahahahahahahah ikr? Well the Starks *are* pretty functional all things considered, but they're an exception I think. The Tyrells are too but just within themselves, you're totally right lol. The Martells maybe? Though they'd be considered dysfunctional by Westeros standard, lol. Everyone else is not even to take into account xDDD
Well they're still Bolton people and Brienne still means less than zero to them, so. But yes if they keep the basic scene I'll totally good with it, as long as it's there in some semblance. :D
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Date: 2013-04-09 07:26 pm (UTC)I was actually considering the Martells too, but then left them out precisely because of that reason (not exactly by Westerosi standards), lol. I mean, they're allowed to have multiple lovers, right? Obery had both male and female ones. And then there are The Sand Snakes, his bastard daughters (each with a different woman, I believe). But I mean, as far as Dorne customs go, I think they're pretty functional. Except I guess Arianne did betray her father by taking Myrcella on her own, so yeah.
Btw, I'm pretty excited by the fact that GRRM himself wrote the script for The Bear and the Maiden Fair episode. Not that the other writers aren't good, but I always have more faith when he's the oen writing, since they ARE his characters and books, after all. So I feel there won't be many character assassinations (of bodysnatchers, as you put it).
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Date: 2013-04-09 07:43 pm (UTC)Lol yeah exactly, tell me another place in Westeros where someone actually goes searching for all his bastard daughters and gives them proper upbringing. (Reason 13467845 why Oberyn is in my top ten forever.) And yes he had like the first four from four different women and the last four from Ellaria I think. But yeah they're generally a lot more functional than most. And weeeell Arianne was just too impatient, she did get on her dad's side the moment she learned his plans ;)
ME TOO OMG SO MUCH I CAN'T WAIT. But yeah considering that last season's best episode (except maybe two and three) was Blackwater which GRRM wrote I tend to like it best when he writes the script too. HOPEFULLY NO ROBB BODYSNATCHING WILL BE HAPPENING.
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Date: 2013-04-09 09:49 pm (UTC)Exactly! x333
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Date: 2013-04-09 01:43 pm (UTC)1) Oh same here. MY SHIP ALWAYS LIVES REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING *whistles*
2) I liked them too! I'm the same tbh - in the books I think they're okay but I really don't have that many feelings about Tyrells regardless (tbh I'm much more into Tully/Martell stanning territory XD) but I love how they cast them! :D and mhhh wait with her son you mean Mace? I think he was at least at the Purple Wedding, but since I don't think that's happening this season probably the next though.
3) My main reason for laughing my ass off was how he was totally falling for Margaery's manipulation without even realizing it a bit but yeah, he's still totally into creepy territory. Though tbh I like him better in the show than in the book (... well, it wouldn't have taken much) so I'll totally be with you with giving Jack awards for the acting. And yesss she's so awesome omg. In the book I don't really care either way about her but in the show she's being very very awesome. Also Joffrey wishes to outlaw homosexuality.. >_>
4) I don't either tbh, but in the show she seems very much genuinely into him, which.. well, in the book I got the impression that he was more into her than she was into him, so either they want people to suffer when she eventually betrays him, or she doesn't? I'll see I suppose. XD
5) Wasn't Beric the guy with the bow? I thought it was him but I might have have heard wrong. XD ALSO YES CAN WE JUST HAVE ARYA STAY WITH THE OTHER TWO HALVES OF THE HARRENHAL OT3 FOREVER THANK YOU. I'm not even into the whole 'Arya becomes a faceless man' thing in the first place, so DDDDD:
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Date: 2013-04-09 03:04 pm (UTC)a) the title of the episode is Mysha (Mother), which makes people think it's going to centre around 3 "mothers" in particular - Daenerys (with the whole "mother of dragons nad freeing the slaves" thing), Cat (being resurrected by Beric) and Cersei's horror/grief because of Joffrey's death.
b) the episode with Jaime and Brienne fighting the bear is going to be episode 7, which is 3 freaking episodes before the end, meaning that they should probably reach King's Landing by episode 10 and by that time, Joffrey was already dead
c) some even believe that the PW might happen in episode 9 (at the same time as the RW) just to kind of draw parallels between both weddings.
However, I still think the PW is happening in season 4. As for Jaime reaching KL before Joff dies, it's not like they haven't changed things before. They changed way more important things even.
3) Ugh, yeah, when he said that, I was like "Are you fucking kidding me, you little shit?!" >__> Just when I thought I couldn't possibly hate you more. Agreed about Margaery.
4) Yeah, those are basically the only two options they have for the show. Maybe they're trying to set something up with this whole Sansa conversation they had (with Shae being jealous). Maybe she starts to feel threatened by Sansa after her and Tyrion get married. But idk.
5) Noooo, that was Anguy! :D Granted, in the books he was much younger (like 17?), beardless, ginger and he had freckles on his face. I actually quite liked him in the books, he was a lot of fun. :) I don't think they've shown Beric at all yet. I'm thinking we first get to see him in the next episode, when they bring The Hound to him.
Omg, couldn't agree more! The whole "Arya faceless men" plot became quite boring to me. It actually made me not care about her as much anymore. Before that storyline, she was definitely in my top 5 characters, but after that... nope.
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Date: 2013-04-09 06:03 pm (UTC)Lol Joffrey, Joffrey, you have no hope whatsoever. Though whenever he's like MOM DON'T EMBARRASS ME I start cackling without remorse.
Maybe? No idea. But either it's going to hurt a lot worse or they're changing stuff.
... HAHAHAHA I was obviously worrying too much about Theon, oops. *facepalm* okay I take it back ;)
Meh the more that part goes on the more I dislike the basic idea - I liked Arya when she was *Arya*, not while she's training to become some ruthless assassin who changes their identity at random. I mean, the more we went on in ASOS the more scared I got because seriously SHE'S WHAT, ELEVEN FFS STOP IT YOU SHOULDN'T BE A RUTHLESS KILLER AT ELEVEN, but as it is right now I just want her to go back to Westeros and reunite with aa!Jon or something but please bring her back. D:
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Date: 2013-04-09 07:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 07:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 09:53 pm (UTC)Hmm, I wonder who is going to end up being cast as Oberyn (and the other new characters too). Do you have like any dream cast for him, btw?
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Date: 2013-04-09 10:37 pm (UTC)Mmmhhhh the only suggestion I had seen thrown around which I totally could have backed up was Naveen Andrews - I don't know if you used to watch Lost, he played Sayid - who probably is a bit short but I thought he was very sexy and had a omgsoverylovely voice and actually is a very good actor even if when Lost's plot started going down the drain the efforts were drowned by the lack of coherence of what he was supposed to act xD (actually oh I still have Lost icons, there he is - obviously he's not the blonde dude XD) I really don't have a OMG DO WANT ABSOLUTELY casting though - I mean, while if we're talking about the Other Fantasy Series I'm Obsessed With aka The Dark Tower I have two possible people I would OMG ABSOLUTELY WANT for my favorite character [Ever in any medium] and anyone else would be a travesty, with Oberyn if it was someone else I could probably roll with it unless they went and whitewashed him ;)
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 11:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-09 08:21 pm (UTC)And yesss Arya hasn't killed anyone else as far as I remember. And Sandor showed up too soon =_='' idg what they're doing with the timeline. .... also don't ever remind me that Gendry and Mel could be a thing okay - JUST MAKE ME FORGET IT XDDDD I CAN'T EVEN. Well, I'm prepared to horrible shit/changes, but NOT FOR THAT TBH
♥ my pleasure ;) <333
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:15 pm (UTC)Also, wait what?!! Gendry/Mel?!! I don't remember anything like that happening in the books. Is this a fan thing?! Or do people suspect there might be some chance of it on the show or?!! O____O
Sorry for butting in, btw. ^^;
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:22 pm (UTC)Talisa: nope, I haven't! Mmmh interesting, I'm gonna have to look that up... and to think that if I hope that she is then I'm also hoping Robb leaves *that* kind of bad image to the posterity - you fucked up the war BECAUSE YOU FELL FOR A SPY? *facepalm*
Er apparently it happens in one of the trailers. I've seen like two of them because I was trying to stay unspoiled so I have no clue of how/when/if it's happening, but... it's apparently a thing. Idek. Really. I actually live in terror of the moment it happens, if it does XD (but if it's in the trailer I suppose it does D:)
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:42 pm (UTC)I think it's a very well thought out theory, but I feel like the writers weren't quite as smart as this and they're probably just coincidences, but I guess you never know.
Oh my god, PLEASE NO!!!! NOOOOOOO!!! THIS IS THE WORST THING SINCE TALISA!!! fuck
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Date: 2013-04-09 11:48 pm (UTC)... I really hope that it's a dream or some elaborate trolling tbh. Or that it results in nothing. I really really DON'T ever want it to happen. D:
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Date: 2013-04-10 04:22 pm (UTC)Since I know you like the Blackfish, here's a little preview of him (if you haven't seen it yet): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlmTBjE2kgg (his bit starts at about 6:20)
Btw, there's also a scene where Mel is with Beric (wtf?! I don't think that ever happened in the books?!!), meaning the rumours about her meeting Gendry are probably true. =/
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Date: 2013-04-10 04:39 pm (UTC)... haha. Yeah. Saw it. Ugh. I'll just pretend it never happened when it actually happens, the end.
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Date: 2013-04-10 04:49 pm (UTC)Sigh. I mean... what are they even trying to do here? Maybe they want Gendry to take Edric Storm's place as Robert's bastard that Mel wants to sacrifice (because they won't bring in Edric at all)? I can't see any other reason why they should meet at all.
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Date: 2013-04-10 05:02 pm (UTC)I think that they definitely want Gendry to take Edric's place (THEY COULDN'T HAVE CAST EDRIC, NOOO) but then again even if it was the case why the hell would Mel seduce Gendry seriously WHY. I'm already having a hard time buying that Mel actually seduced Stannis in the first place, don't jump the shark like that.
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Date: 2013-04-10 05:09 pm (UTC)Yeah, I have no idea. Maybe to ~lure him in, making him trust her, so it'd be easier for her to kill him then? Ugh, I really don't know. >_>
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Date: 2013-04-10 05:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-04-10 06:24 pm (UTC)Btw, I've been meaning to ask something about your icon. I've seen a few of these "[celebrity] is a [asoiaf house]" around and I was wondering: is there a person who decides which house a certain celebrity would fit into most and then makes these icons? Because if there is, I'd like to see more (and possibly with some explanations as to why they think a certain person would be in this house too). Sorry if that sounded confusing. I may have worded it a bit weird. ^^;
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Date: 2013-04-10 06:33 pm (UTC)And sure! I got it, I think XD this one I'm using rn (and the Bruce and the Patti Smith one) are all from this absolutely awesome post (http://misstopia.livejournal.com/72585.html?style=mine#comments) which also has some explanations about why they sorted them like that (I tend to basically agree with everything), but it's all rock singers (more or less, the only Lannister that qualifies would be David Bowie) XDD I'm just sad that I don't have enough space to also grab the Greyjoy Robert Plant one D: anyway these are the only ones I know of though, I have no idea if more people did the same thing with other celebrities. :)
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Date: 2013-04-10 06:36 pm (UTC)